tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post678091900706260096..comments2023-07-13T07:17:39.722-04:00Comments on Hannah Wept, Sarah Laughed: I Beg to Differ, Max: Infertility is NOT a Social ConditionKeiko Zollhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13626943324988347787noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-38355734975796443872011-05-25T20:20:56.701-04:002011-05-25T20:20:56.701-04:00Well, if he is going to go there...
No Viagra the...Well, if he is going to go there...<br /><br />No Viagra then, buddy.<br /><br />MPissed Off Patienthttp://pissedoffpatient.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-31751981405801616462011-05-24T08:37:53.490-04:002011-05-24T08:37:53.490-04:00I'm reminded of a film where a journalist admi...I'm reminded of a film where a journalist admits that it sells more papers when he is negative. That supporting something is where a journalist actually takes a risk. This fellow isn't horrific, just a little spineless.<br /><br />Nonetheless, it's our job to push back, every time we see or hear this sort of rhetoric. Well done!Alechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07853352807562606917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-72790671873155641802011-05-22T07:26:01.718-04:002011-05-22T07:26:01.718-04:00Excellent blog Keiko, and what an idjit he is!
Ye...Excellent blog Keiko, and what an idjit he is! <br />Years ago when I liven in the UK I read a travel review in the Telegraph about Denmark (my home country) stating e.g. that the Danes feed their kids on hotdogs. Errr? No more than the French feed their kids on frogs legs or the Germans theirs on Sauerkraut. Infuriating.<br /><br />This really take that up a couple of notches! <br /><br />Equally infuriating: in Germany (where I now live) IVF works on the 'blame' culture. Approx half of IVF cost is paid by the health insurance of the partner whose <i>fault</i> it is. The other approx half is paid by the couple them selves. Seriously, FAULT? Wouldn't we all be breaking up as couples if we were to consider this a matter of blame or fault? <br /><br />Thanks for an awesome blog. Please drop by mine, too<br />Www.bigsisnathalie.blogspot.com <br /><br />Anne xxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-92009238074616090672011-05-22T03:53:06.514-04:002011-05-22T03:53:06.514-04:00Well done.
Max seems to have his issues combined...Well done. <br /><br />Max seems to have his issues combined when he shouldn't. <br /><br />There are two separate things here that he doesn't seem to have the intelligence to separate. <br /><br />The first is whether infertility is a disease. As an IF I am with the WHO - for us this was caused by injury, for others illness or unexplained bad luck. It is not a social disorder. <br /><br />The other issue is whether the NHS should pay. I'm British and living in NZ and I'm waiting for IVF public funding. I would love for everyone to have access to free treatment, but we live in the real world. Some health authorities don't fund the best cancer treatments and people die as a result. Other authorities don't fund IVF. Others don't invest in new dialysis machines. <br /><br />For Max to feel the need to discredit the disease in order to defend the idea that IVF shouldn't be funded shows immaturity and a lack of skill in writing discussion pieces. Having read some of his other Telegraph articles, he appears to have a very childish style. Maybe he should work on his SHO career and leave journalism alone for a few years. <br /><br />I'm dismayed but unsurprised that Torygraph/Telegraph readers support Max's opinions and express those further to the right. <br /><br />Well argued on your part - thank youPjjamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09504145739372571831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-63454103826026617412011-05-20T05:43:28.985-04:002011-05-20T05:43:28.985-04:00Totally agree.
He seems to be implying that as in...Totally agree.<br /><br />He seems to be implying that as infertility is not life threatening, it is not as important. That those who can't conceive should just accept that it's a natural condition.<br /><br />Well, by that logic, people who develop cancer should just accept it as a "natural" condition - their body telling them they shouldn't live any longer. Should they be denied treatment too?<br /><br />What about people with serious burns scars or phobias, or amputees? They're definitely not life threatening conditions, so probably shouldn't receive any NHS funding either. In fact, Max should be out of a job, because I'm fairly sure child psychiatry isn't normally associated with "long-term disability, morbidity or mortality".<br /><br />It's baffling that so many consider the prolonging of life more important than creating new life. And then when we get people to live longer they get shoved in a nursing home and treated appallingly.Pixxihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03835241594225327289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-2202599985371043862011-05-20T05:41:50.429-04:002011-05-20T05:41:50.429-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Pixxihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03835241594225327289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-35471676710257581262011-05-20T00:07:55.147-04:002011-05-20T00:07:55.147-04:00Well, this is an interesting article. Thanks for p...Well, this is an interesting article. Thanks for posting it.<br /><br />He could have written exactly the same thing for e.g. cleft palate. "While cleft palate is distressing, it is not associated with long-term disability, morbidity or mortality" (it actually does cause disability in some cases, but not in all). So why does the NHS pay for surgery for children born with this "abnormalitiy / natural variation / social condition" (however you want to call it) ?<br /><br />The question is not so much if we define something as a "disease". You can cast the web wide or small for this definition. In order to do a proper job of arguing his point, he whould need to put out a whole set of conditions the NHS pays for. And then do a thorough analysis what he thinks a community should pay for or not. <br /><br />A condition that affects 1 out of 8couples ? A condition that results in missing out on so many children, that should have been here but will not make it if we do not pay for them as a community ? All those children, that will also end up paying HIS pension later on ? <br /><br />How much is spent in tax incentives to increase birth rates in countries like Italy, Germany, France etc. ? I know that this is not the US perspective, but in my home country you get at least 640$ per month during the first year of your child in child education payments (Erziehungs- und Kindergeld). Up to 60% of your former wages, if you worked before having children. So, this is at least half an IVF cycle per child - during his/her first year of life. This is because children are VALUABLE for society. Especially for shrinking populations that want to keep up with pension payments. <br /><br />If he is unwilling to treat infertiliy out of compassion, or because he does not think it qualifies as a disease, maybe he should sit down and do the calculations. What is an IVF round compared to a lifetime of social security/medicare/NHS contributions of the resulting child ? <br /><br />Hey, and people that go through treatments to have children, really WANT them. They will likely do a better job at educating fine adults than the average. 1/8 more responsible adults 20 years from now ? Bring them on!<br /><br />Sorry for the long anonymous rant. I do not have a Google account and usually do not leave comments, but his short-sightedness kind of upset me.<br /><br />And I wrote this rant because I feel that this argument often is missing in discussions about infertility. Treating infertility is not a one-sided favour. The couples receiving the treatment give something back to the community. They will raise children (hopefully). Raising a child (a consumer, a pension payer, a responsible voter) is worth MUCH more than the cost of an IVF cycle. Society should cover infertility treatments for its own good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-39608505824968535792011-05-19T18:31:16.118-04:002011-05-19T18:31:16.118-04:00Wow, Max is a straight-up idiot. I wish I had mor...Wow, Max is a straight-up idiot. I wish I had more eloquent words at the moment, but after my 50 millionth appointment to treat my PCOS (which is a syndrome that the medical community recognizes, Max!); I'm a little more than tired at the moment.<br /><br />My infertility is NOT a social disorder! It comes from a syndrome I have which messes up my hormones and makes it nearly impossible for me to ovulate without the help of expensive medications and monitoring.<br /><br />My life has been completely altered by this disease. If there is anything "social" about it, it's that it has in many ways made it hard for me to lead a normal life - you try having doctor appointments every three to four days and see if your life doesn't get socially disrupted too.<br /><br />This is the kind of ignorance that just blows my mind. We HAVE to stop complete morons like Max Pemberton from spewing idiocy like this to the millions. We HAVE to stop the spread of heinous misinformation and ancient research. THANK YOU for stepping up for ALL of us and letting people like Max Pemberton know they are just plain stupid.*Mandie*https://www.blogger.com/profile/15070273168959077565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-67427464849052813902011-05-19T14:02:19.937-04:002011-05-19T14:02:19.937-04:00I'm with Jasmine, and of course you made a bea...I'm with Jasmine, and of course you made a beautiful argument, where I would have just wanted to wring his neck. Maybe one day he will find out first hand what it is like to not have a choice. I have found that those types seem to learn the hard way how wrong they were.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02712553731274873122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-55057438571784812532011-05-19T12:31:11.209-04:002011-05-19T12:31:11.209-04:00Jeanie & Kat - excellent points about the pote...Jeanie & Kat - excellent points about the potential for morbidity and mortality. Even my own diagnosis, POF/POI - if left untreated w/o HRT, POI patients can have shorter life expectancy. Scary stuff indeed.Keiko Zollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626943324988347787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-76509917910716057082011-05-19T12:28:53.352-04:002011-05-19T12:28:53.352-04:00Jasmine - I actually hashed this out with him on T...Jasmine - I actually hashed this out with him on Twitter. He agrees, but the interesting thing was that he wrote about infertility and IVF b/c it's more newsworthy over Viagra & ED.Keiko Zollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626943324988347787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-9556145652687126372011-05-19T12:27:38.889-04:002011-05-19T12:27:38.889-04:00Sushigirl - thanks for the catch on England vs. UK...Sushigirl - thanks for the catch on England vs. UK. Sorry, my American is showing ;)Keiko Zollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626943324988347787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-20251029938651638612011-05-19T12:26:46.836-04:002011-05-19T12:26:46.836-04:00Jackie, you raise an EXCELLENT distinction: Childl...Jackie, you raise an EXCELLENT distinction: Childlessness is a social condition. Infertility is a disease.Keiko Zollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626943324988347787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-49288152853370735302011-05-19T11:55:11.892-04:002011-05-19T11:55:11.892-04:00Well said!
I have to wonder, as a child psychiatr...Well said!<br /><br />I have to wonder, as a child psychiatrist, what actually qualifies Max Pemberton to say ANYTHING on the subject of infertility.Kerrikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206990230707526604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-73824315402621473892011-05-19T11:46:51.607-04:002011-05-19T11:46:51.607-04:00I can NOT believe that someone had the guts to wri...I can NOT believe that someone had the guts to write that in public, or at all for that matter! It *excuse my language* pisses me off that he would even say that. You're right! We DIDN'T choose this disease. We DIDN'T wake up one day and say, "oh, I think I'll put cysts all over my ovaries so that I can't have kids! NO!aliciamarie911https://www.blogger.com/profile/15392189556918403197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-26569234570887553332011-05-19T09:53:38.596-04:002011-05-19T09:53:38.596-04:00My jaw also dropped as I read this. I'm sitti...My jaw also dropped as I read this. I'm sitting here mumbling, "Excuse me" in an enraged tone. I try to forgive a lot of dumb comments people say because they just don't know any better about IF, but this is beyond belief.Cherishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00278649029861408119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-19276262995459172352011-05-19T08:10:21.852-04:002011-05-19T08:10:21.852-04:00This is why you're my hero, give em hell girl!...This is why you're my hero, give em hell girl!Funny Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09050432322248211186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-10938032809421838232011-05-19T03:01:37.465-04:002011-05-19T03:01:37.465-04:00It's the Daily Telegraph, if they had it their...It's the Daily Telegraph, if they had it their way the NHS wouldn't exist, or at least would just run accident and emergency services (i.e. the part which can't make any profit if it was run privately). They'll make any excuse to do the NHS down, unfortunately in this case they've decided to make the point through infertility (in one particularly impressive case a few years ago I saw a columnist argue against the NHS funding wheelchairs - in case the recipient was faking it). Urgh, it drives me up the wall!Purplefroglethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09102247290607262175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-78284431993800771782011-05-19T00:05:49.256-04:002011-05-19T00:05:49.256-04:00I loved how he said since it has nothing to do wit...I loved how he said since it has nothing to do with morbitity nor mortality. Actually in some cases, it does. I suffer from endo, and have a friend whose endo almost killed her. The endo tied her intestine in knots. Max, do your homework into the disease of infertility. Infertility is the broad spectrum title, just like there are many different cancers and many other diseases that are classified under one heading.Jeanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11242301230739296051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-77898635267431350142011-05-18T20:57:08.218-04:002011-05-18T20:57:08.218-04:00Keiko, your point about clarifying childlessness a...Keiko, your point about clarifying childlessness as social condition vs. reproductive disability as a disease is phenomenal. So very true, and like so many of your fellow readers I applaud your eloquence and grace in your attempt to enlighten this guy. Bravo!Meganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587196842378524890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-16742096505039880112011-05-18T20:21:35.485-04:002011-05-18T20:21:35.485-04:00I usually lurk but time to post:
Sushigirl has hi...I usually lurk but time to post:<br /><br />Sushigirl has hit the nail on the head. The Telegraph is one of the worst newspapers for this kind of nonsense. I generally ignore everything that it written in it.<br /><br />The point that the NHS can't afford IVF is valid, because the NHS can't afford lots of things. That's why we have a 'postcode lottery' in the UK, where people in some regions get different treatment than others living 2 miles away. Most regions only fund 1 or 2 cycles as it is.<br /><br />If you want to read reasonable British journalism on this issue go over to The Guardian 'family' section which in the last week has had well argued articles about waiting too long, and the emotional impact of egg donation.Kathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13196968417331947398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-1074544604363923552011-05-18T19:55:49.409-04:002011-05-18T19:55:49.409-04:00This guy has no freaking clue. None. You are so ri...This guy has no freaking clue. None. You are so right, Keiko, we did not ask for this. Infertility is a disease, plain and simple - what about the people who become clinically depressed as a result of their childlessness? Are my ovaries supposed to have cysts on them that are affecting my health {hello insulin resistance}? Last I checked, PCOS puts women at a higher risk for certain cancers. Childlessness may not be a disease but the medical complications behind the childlessness certainly are. What an idiot.Melissa N.http://www.infertilemyrtleme.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-22758574139674300072011-05-18T19:51:33.226-04:002011-05-18T19:51:33.226-04:00Well said, Keiko, well said.Well said, Keiko, well said.Christiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07732476424502629272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-50004669443513834982011-05-18T19:51:11.305-04:002011-05-18T19:51:11.305-04:00Well said, Keiko, well said.Well said, Keiko, well said.Christiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07732476424502629272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3937906571580018268.post-60767073818874838112011-05-18T19:35:27.418-04:002011-05-18T19:35:27.418-04:00Following Max's logic, then, Viagra and any ot...Following Max's logic, then, Viagra and any other "erectile dysfunction" drugs should also not be covered.Jasminenoreply@blogger.com